Author Topic: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite  (Read 1238 times)

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gandolf

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Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« on: April 09, 2017, 09:06:18 PM »
I have a suggestion as to how to improve the SiverTron Elite to make it even better!

Hold your horses!!!! 

Yes, I am the pesky old gandolf guy and all….

But I retired at the age of 45 for seeing ‘problems in paradise’ like this…..  No one wants to make perfect things better, until they fail…  But maybe I can help make your game even better! 

Current…  It is a nice and very critical measurement but regulating blindly on current is a mistake...  Regulating on integrated current and the total Coulomb summed count is the only key there.
But current regulation alone invites low voltage cell errors...

Cell voltage is also very critical!  If it is too low the process goes to Hell…



-0.7996V…  +2.71V…  Difference is 3.5096V. 

Then you actually need to double those numbers in the symmetrical field stress case (I still need to work on you guys in believing in ‘electrical fields’  ;) )…
Production guys go for 3X to be “really sure” nothing goes wrong…..

The “magic” voltage is 7.0192 volts….  In the ‘symmetrical electrode’ case.

You might actually succeed in cutting the voltage number almost in half with a “small cathode” (most of the cathode removed from the solution).  But that is sort of getting into uncontrollable BS…

So my suggestion is:

The SilverTron Elite should have an option to control cell voltage instead of current.  Just coulomb count the current to know the stop time.
   The minimum should be 7.0192 volts…  But really…  Make it 10.52 volts…

If the voltage ever goes lower than that, you are it trouble and the unit should issue a warning to the user and suggestions to fix it…

That is my suggestion.

Offline kephra

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 10:44:14 PM »
Duly noted and rejected as totally unnecessary.

If you had read all the material on this site, you would have seen I already discussed field strength long before you showed up.

I can see why you were retired at 45. 


Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

gandolf

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 11:25:58 PM »
Duly noted and rejected as totally unnecessary.

I am a bit surprised at your response.   :(

But no worries.  If you refuse to innovate, others certainly will take it over.

I was only trying to help you.   :'(

Offline kephra

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2017, 06:54:42 AM »
Your problem is that you see problems where none exist.  That is not good engineering.
You do not fully comprehend what the ST does nor you do fully comprehend all of the process parameters.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 01:24:07 PM »
Gandolf,  I have been reading this board for a long time.  Actually since way before the Silvertron Elite was invented.  Actually since before Kephra was selling ANYTHING.    The ENTIRE time Kephra has ALWAYS said to keep your voltage ABOVE 10V.

So actually there is no argument here.  Sounds to me like you guys agree exactly on what the Minimum Voltage should be.

When comparing the ST Elite to other units available on the market, there is no comparison or anything even close.

Now that we have determined the correct MINIMUM Voltage ( ABOVE 10V for at least 5 years that I know of),  I have always wondered what the IDEAL OPTIMAL voltage is.  I would be interested to hear if you have an opinion on that.  I already know Kephra's opinion on that unless it has changed recently.
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

gandolf

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 06:24:16 PM »
The ENTIRE time Kephra has ALWAYS said to keep your voltage ABOVE 10V.

So actually there is no argument here.  Sounds to me like you guys agree exactly on what the Minimum Voltage should be.

I agree that 10V is just fine.  My only thought was to have the SilverTron 'warn the user' if the cell voltage fell below 10V.  Perhaps it already does since it would be sort of odd to have the SilverTron run below 10V and make an obvious bad batch.  It should just stop and tell the user they are doing it wrong.  Not everyone reads the instructions or everything in the forum here (especially if they are not feeling well).  I just about have read it all but the amount that actually has sunk in is 'controversial'.   ;D

If the SilverTron ran at say a fixed 10V and then just integrated the resulting current over time then there would be less that could go wrong in this area.  My own toy has many regulation modes and a fixed voltage mode with integrated current to reach a desired amount of net coulombs is by far my favorite.  Very consistent and nothing can go wrong....  The SilverTron could easily do this too.  I am sorry kephra is not very receptive to new ideas for the SilverTron but I realize he might just not like "me".  ::)

Quote
When comparing the ST Elite to other units available on the market, there is no comparison or anything even close.
The hardware theory is trivial but the real value of the SilverTron is kephra's knowledge and thought he has behind it.  You can make really nice colloidal silver with just a 9V battery but I will just stop there before I really step on toes.   ;D  "Kephra" makes the SiverTron great - not the machine.

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I have always wondered what the IDEAL OPTIMAL voltage is.  I would be interested to hear if you have an opinion on that.
Oh sure.  Get me into MORE trouble!  ;D  ;D  But this is what "i" think....

The magic number is 3.5096V.  Below that the sodium carbonate cell will not work as we all know.  That is assuming a LOT of messy things about the anode and cathode configurations...  If the anode and cathode are identical you have to double that number to 7.0192V.  If the cathode is pulled out of the water to make it smaller than the anode, then the critical voltage is between those two numbers.  There are ways to actually detect that critical voltage but they are "messy" (galvanic cell voltage.  I don't think the Silvertron can switch and measure fast enough to do that.).

However....  The voltages in a cell are 3 dimensional and vary as my other post on electrical fields showed.  So you "over voltage" the cell just to be sure all the electrode surfaces are beyond the critical levels*.  I have done it fine with a 9V battery but that is just about the minimum. 12V is a convenient car battery voltage.  25 Volts is nice because it all goes so fast.  But at higher voltages you really have to stir the cell very hard**.  If you don't stir the cell fast enough at high voltage then the result gets darker yellow due the the larger particles created by the overwhelmed electrode surface electrochemistry.

So, in the general case, there is no "IDEAL OPTIMAL voltage" other then use enough voltage to be sure it is well over the critical voltages.  At the high end of voltage you have to stir it really hard.  I really like 12V for the two 12ga wire electrode inserted equally case.


*3D surface field stress is why I worry about using odd shaped electrodes like bullion.   Many of the shrouded surfaces might go below the critical voltage values.

**I have ideas on nice stirrers too, but I already am in too much hot water.  8)

Offline RickinWI

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 08:04:22 PM »
At the high end of voltage you have to stir it really hard.


If I have my rig set to run @ 6 mA why would 20V require more stirring than 12 V would?  That seems counterintuitive to me.  Wouldn't the extra voltage help to move the newly created silver ions away from the Anode and out of the Nernst Layer surrounding the Anode that much more quickly?
So many VARIABLES & so little TIME.

Offline kephra

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2017, 08:14:08 PM »
Quote
If I have my rig set to run @ 6 mA why would 20V require more stirring than 12 V would?
Rick, it doesn't require more stirring.  That's just bad advice.
Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.

Offline kephra

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Re: Improvment suggestion for the SiverTron Elite
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2017, 08:15:26 PM »
Quote from: gandolf
I am sorry kephra is not very receptive to new ideas for the SilverTron but I realize he might just not like "me".  ::)
I am open to suggestions that make sense and actually improve the total system.  Yours do not.
Like I said, you do not fully understand all of the parameters and you seem to have no sense about the difference between an experiment and a product. 

With that, the topic is closed.

Colloidal Silver is only a bargain if you make it yourself.